You're not a REAL American!
I have been hearing alot of criticism from both sides about what it means to be an American. Usually it's in the context "that's because you are un-American!"
Personally, I think people don't know what it really means to be an American and I'll post my own views later. However ...
What would you define as patriotism?
What is American? (Alternatively, what is a REAL American)
And on a related note - what do you all think about this practice of letting foreign nationals serve in the military BEFORE they are citizens.
posted by TheRadicalModerate @ 9/10/2004 01:17:00 AM
27 Comments:
I just answered this question in my blog, but I'll repeat it here.
It seems to me that America was founded on the idea of political and cultural diversity. That protect the individual, you must protect the collective rights of individuals as a whole.
Therefore, I think anyone who is pro-American would inherently put the interests of humanity at the center of their idealism. Because the world is a very beautiful and diverse place.
And that is why I am suspicious of anyone who pretends to be pro-American, but anti-world. It makes no sense to talk about the diversity of this country and then attack the diversity of the world. America is about preserving choices, whether they be religious, cultural, or idealogical, etc.
Oh, I forgot to answer the issue of patriotism. The problem with word patriot is it comes from the word pater meaning father, which is maybe why it's always used to promote knee-jerk reactions. I'm a matriot. ;-)
To me patriotism is being able to trust in your national and local govt to do what's right for the majority of Americans and to be proud to be an American.
I don't believe not being patriotic is un-American. What I don't like is people who hate being American.
I agree with Sheryl that the world is a very diverse and wonderous thing. But like any organism, there can be infected tissue which needs tending to wether it be self inflicted or not.
I basically agree iwth gecko.
but i think the people who complain about protestors are the ones being unAmerican. i mean freedom of speech is part of the constitution. having worked crowd contorl before i know that most protestors are harmless, just passionate. it's the dangerous ones that give the rest a bad name.
i would also add that patriotism means willng to fight for america, to protect it from harm.
i dont have a problem with foreign nationals serving cuz they recognize how good America is and want to be part ofit.
gregB
I agree with everything you guys said. And the reason I object to things my government does is that I think the "bad tissue" sometimes extends into or from the US.
I was just looking at an Israeli weapons contractor's report (20-F) to the US Security and Exchange commission, where they basically say that their survival is mostly based on contracts from the the Israeli Ministry of Defense and the US Department of Defense.
The Israeli weapons contractor for Rafael has a US branch, which has filed lobby reports with Congress. I also quickly came up with a fairly long list of Israeli defense contractors, including the Israeli government.
This kind of bothers me, considering the amount of money that the US gives Israel in the Foreign Military Financing program.
I know I am getting off topic here, but in terms of "bad tissue" this is very disturbing to me. It's bad enough that American weapons contractors are profiteering from our tax payer money, but I had been assuming that it was mainly the US military industrial complex, but it seems to go further than that.
On the one hand they are israeli companies, on the other hand the first one I looked up was listed on the NASDAQ.
But to bring this full circle, I think it's more "patriotic" to question these types of arrangements than to ignore them.
PEZ says ...
For me it is very simple. America was founded through a 'melting pot' of ideas, religions and cultures. To insure these ideas the Constitution was created giving us freedom of speech, religion, etc. in an effort to insure "the blessings of liberty".
Thus, an American is someone who goes his/her own way and respects/tolerates others going their own way. A patriot is one who believes in these ideas and is willing to fight, question, defend in an effort to keep these ideas alive.
So, even though I don't like Nazis, they can protest all they want. So can muslims, anti-war activists, the (idiot) anti-globalization activists, etc. The people who call these protestors are the ones who are "un-American".
Likewise, the people who are un-American are the ones who don't let others go their own way. To me I don't care what you do as long as your actions don't harm society. So if you don't want to be forced to say "under god" because you're an atheist, that's fine. If you want to have an abortion, that's fine. Just as long as your ideas/beliefs don't impose on me then what's the problem. So anything that either directly or indirectly imposes on other individuals is wrong and un-American.
For clairification, please, a few questions. If I complain about protestors exercising my freedom of speech (say I don't want to expose my children to slogan emblazoned underwear people) that's un-American? Or is it only if I refuse to let them protest when and where they want to?
Aren't there too many things which are done/espoused by minor groups of people that can be felt to be an infringement on other groups? Maybe the Frank Nortons out there don't want to see my Marine Corps sticker on my car; should I be required to take it off? I think the current trend to anesthetize the country is dangerous and un-american.
Yeah! What PEZ said!
I should take the other side, because everyone is agreeing and there are two valid sides to this debate.
If you think about it , protesting and civil disobedience are forms of intolerance. And good forms of intolerance at that.
It is saying that we will not tolerate the government being used for activities that endanger our morality and/or humanity.
Ryan just posted a great example of that in his blog.
I was just thinking yesterday that one of the great paradoxes of liberal thinking is in fact tolerance. How tolerant should one be to intolerance if the point is to promote tolerance (or at least diversity and choice)? To me the goal is diversity and choice.
Patriotism is dangerous when it subordinates the rights of people to the interests of the state.
As usual, I agree with Ryan.
BTW, where did Mr. Moderate disappear?
That sucks that this blog is ending. I enjoyed it.
I'm also disappointed; I'll miss this blog emensely. Dang! You're the one that got me hooked! Stay sharp and try to look at both sides of the issues...
What do you mean nobody was posting? I was just waiting for you to come back....
Yeah, me too! And since I always seem to get the last word in, it would have looked a little ridiculous if I had kept posting. Someone please follow this up with a comment.
I guess I never realized this blog was to feature posts from multiple people. For what it's worth, I thought the Radical Moderate was doing a fine job by himself. I don't know of any other forum that hosted such a diversity of views. I'm very sorry to see it go. I hope the RM and others won't be strangers. May Gecko's Page of Musings be the new home to all politically disenfranchised bloggers!
Patriotism has nothing to do with trusting your government or it's leaders.
Patriotism is doing what is right for your country without regard to what it might cost you personally.
We have yet to see true patriotism in 21st century America, but the day is coming.
Hey RM, you still around?
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